Episode Transcript
Ki Sung: Welcome to the MindShift Podcast the place we discover the way forward for studying and the way we increase our children. I’m Ki Sung. As we speak I’m talking to longtime MindShift contributor Debra Farmer Kris. She’s a baby growth skilled and writer of the guide, “Elevating Awe Seekers: How The Science of Marvel Helps our Youngsters Thrive.” Through the depths of pandemic-era parenting, Deborah Farmer Kris found that awe is an typically ignored however highly effective emotion. We’ll talk about how dad and mom and educators can use awe to drive engagement with classroom supplies and reference to the world round us. That dialog, arising proper after this.
Ki Sung: Let’s begin by diving proper into the title of your guide, “Elevating Awe Seekers.” We hear the phrase awe and its variations like superior on a regular basis, however let’s take a step again and have you ever outline for us what awe is and why it’s vital for human growth.
Deborah Farmer Kris : So first awe is an emotion, and that’s vital as a result of as an emotion, it’s one thing we are able to really feel, uh, and we are able to acknowledge once we’re feeling it. And so if you take a look at feelings, um, you might have type of your core 4, like comfortable, mad, unhappy, scared, and you’ve got variations of these. So beneath mad, you may need irate or annoyed.
Awe is extra of a subset of shock and a is what you are feeling if you encounter one thing that’s huge. That’s, um, wondrous, that’s past your extraordinary body of reference. You would possibly see one thing new that strikes you, that touches you, that excites you. And the best way researchers typically speak about how you understand you’re feeling it’s issues like, uh, chills or goosebumps for some individuals.
Um, possibly your eyes involuntarily spring you with tears, uh, the sound. Wow. Or whoa, you understand, you might have someone select a half courtroom shot and it goes in and other people aren’t saying That was a tremendous shot. Now they’re making a all guttural sound of Wow. And I believe for kids as a, as an educator and as a dad or mum, I’d put in that class, this huge eyes that it’s nearly like they wish to soak up what they’re seeing.
The actually neat factor about this explicit emotion is that there’s a wealth of analysis, uh, about 25 years now, most of it out of the Better Good Science Heart at College of California Berkeley,
and it seems that, most good issues we would like for our children from, uh, curiosity and cognitive growth to a way of psychological and emotional wellness, to a way of connectedness, awe helps all of these outcomes.
Ki Sung: it’s fascinating that the analysis has been out for 25 years or round for 25 years as a result of, you understand, we see lots of several types of behaviors getting educational and media scrutiny, like, you understand, the favored ones :grit, resilience, anxiousness, development, mindset, however all doesn’t fairly get as a lot consideration. Are you aware why?
Deborah Farmer Kris : You already know, I believe there wasn’t actually the popularized guide for the second, you understand, Dacher Keltner, who’s the principle researcher on this, one of many lead ones, a 12 months and a half in the past, got here out with a great guide that has been getting extra press.
So I believe awe is starting to have a little bit of a second now. However earlier than you then needed to type of be like me, the, the type of the nerd wanting by way of the journals and looking out by way of the articles and, you understand, I used to be all the time type of, as a result of I write for Thoughts Shift and different sources looking out for good analysis that might be translated, for academics and fogeys. And so whereas it was there, it actually hadn’t had its, um, you understand it, it’s social second but, and I believe hopefully we’re on the beginnings of that proper now
Ki Sung: What does awe should do with, say, with the ability to concentrate in school, particularly for teenagers who’re overscheduled or have a excessive quantity of display time?
Deborah Farmer Kris : Mm-hmm. So the place awe is de facto useful. Academically is that it’s extremely correlated with curiosity. And one factor we learn about curiosity from reams of analysis is that curiosity is a key indicator of educational success. ’trigger it pertains to inside motivation. I imply, give it some thought. You may have interested in one thing, you wish to study it, you’re motivated.
Um, and so the hyperlink between awe and curiosity is simply actually tight since you see one thing you don’t perceive. And awe is commonly associated to this wow second of, you understand, I’m, I’m taking a look at these stars and I’m questioning, I’ve these, I, I want I knew extra. And that feeling, that curiosity is what propels youngsters to, to wish to study. And one of many actually cool items of analysis that I describe within the guide was that if you’re interested in one thing, it truly primes the mind to recollect issues. And I, I take into consideration this typically with very younger kids, the way you may need a 4-year-old who can memorize the names of all of the dinosaurs.
So that they could be speaking concerning the diplodocus. However they could be battling a few of their different extra primary vocabulary, however as a result of their curiosity stage is so excessive, they’re primed to recollect. And so actually deep studying typically occurs at this intersection of, you understand, of focus and curiosity. And so, um, one of many issues they’ve.
Researchers have additionally discovered is that when the mind is primed with curiosity on surprise that even say half-hour later if you’re engaged in an exercise that’s not as fascinating, not as awe inspiring, your mind remains to be primed to study. And in order that will get me enthusiastic about the way it possibly a category is organized, proper?
So am I doing one thing in the beginning of sophistication that’s actually capturing the creativeness or the surprise, um, or the curiosity of scholars, uh. To prime their mind to recollect one thing that later within the class could also be vital, however not essentially as, um, wondrous for them. And so I believe that is an fascinating manner for us to consider college students who is probably not as engaged,
In the event that they’re not as engaged in every part, can we discover the one factor? Can we discover the factor that excites them, that sparks that awe, that lights them up, and use that as type of a basis for different educational studying.
Ki Sung: I wanna speak about dad and mom actual fast. Um, if you speak about surprise, I don’t know if I’ve time for it, as a result of we’re actually so busy. Um, what’s the profit of constructing the time to surprise, um, how ought to I train restraint in not desirous to rush, Um, inform me learn how to restrain myself.
Deborah Farmer Kris : So researching awe has completely in refined however profound methods remodeled how I dad or mum my youngsters, um, partly as a result of it has made me extra attentive to the world round me. Most of the sources of awe are deeply tied to our sensory system, so sounds, sight, smells, what we’re taking in. One of many nice issues about awe that you just, you don’t have to go to the Sistine Chapel or the Grand Canyon, that it’s a really on a regular basis extraordinary emotion, and it’s extra about placing ourselves in, within the path of it.
So for me as a dad or mum, the very first thing I needed to do was make certain I used to be making some house for it myself. And the only manner I, I did this, um, was by adopting, um, one of many practices from analysis, which was taking an a stroll. Now I’ve a canine, so I’m exterior with the canine not less than 3 times a day, often morning, noon, and night.
And I made the choice that a kind of. Occasions I used to be exterior, even for 5 or 10 minutes, I’d not have my cellphone on, I’d not be listening to music. I’d simply be paying consideration. I’d be wanting up, uh, I’d be wanting on the bushes. Um, and I, I, I actually name it my awe stroll, proper? 5 minutes a day, 10 minutes a day.
And I seen that. Over the course of almost two years now, this has remodeled my relationship with my neighborhood. And I don’t simply imply my neighbors, though being exterior has helped me join with them. However the bushes, the, the birds who I actually didn’t even discover have been within the neighborhood. And now I can establish so a lot of them, the, the altering of the seasons.
Um, after which I made the very aware resolution as a dad or mum that after I did discover this stuff, I used to be going to be extra lively about sharing them. Uh, and that implies that, you understand, if I hear a narrative that of say a human being variety or courageous, which is a key supply of awe and surprise. Um, I’m gonna speak to my youngsters about it.
Um, if I see a extremely lovely sundown, I’m going to be the mother who says, come out and look. Simply the opposite day we have been driving residence and there was a unbelievable double rainbow. And I pulled over, I used to be driving my son residence from piano classes and behind me one other dad or mum pulled over with their 4 or 5-year-old and the 2 of us have been standing on the market with our two kids within the drizzling rain taking a look at this attractive rainbow.
And I simply, you understand, thought this was a second the place it’s gonna take me two minutes longer to get residence, however this will likely be one thing my youngster remembers the place sometimes a drive residence you don’t bear in mind. so it, it’s actually not concerning the large expertise, it’s concerning the little moments within the day of the track, the what you see, the odor that you just pause, you discover, and you then take the subsequent step to share.
Uh, as a result of one of many issues I’ve discovered slowly over time is that as a result of I achieve this a lot sharing of my awe moments, and Itry to simply be tremendous genuine in how I do it, as a result of I. Do love sharing and speaking to my youngsters. They’re much extra more likely to share them with me, to inform me their tales or to ship me the image they discover or the track they assume I’ll like.
And so for me, it turns into nearly this very genuine manner of simply sharing our day collectively and taking note of what lights me up and what lights my youngsters up. And sure, that requires a little bit little bit of slowing down, nevertheless it doesn’t require. You already know, that is gonna be a day of no screens and nothing, or we’re gonna get, take a completely unplugged trip for per week, which none of us have the time or assets to do.
Ki Sung: It’s fairly, um. Uh, distinction I believe to possibly how our brains are wired to consider solely dangerous issues which can be very sticky or, um, uh, the worst issues that may occur to us. I believe lots of us are simply inclined to, um, you understand, assume negatively, um, and dwell on these issues, however seeing the attractive optimistic issues on the earth, um, may additionally present a extra correct. Image or depiction of our every day lives that there are lovely surprise, great issues round us if we simply take the time, uh, time to look.
Deborah Farmer Kris : Yeah, typically I describe awe as the final word and emotion. So, you understand, awe is totally different than gratitude. Gratitude is definitely, um, it may be fairly a cerebral. Emotion the place you assume again and though within the second you didn’t admire it, now you do and also you’re grateful for that. Um, awe may be very involuntary emotion, proper?
You see one thing lovely, you are feeling it. And you understand, for me, I name it the “and” emotion as a result of you understand, I could also be having a extremely robust day and I’m disturbed by one thing on the information and simply earlier than arising right here, Ki, there was this mass of robins, um, exterior that was chattering so loudly. I didn’t truly assume they have been robins as a result of it was noon. And usually they’re not as that loud noon. And I pulled out my Merlin app to see what they have been, and I’m watching them hovering. And I’m questioning, like, I truly Googled, like, why would there be the swarm of Robin’s noon? Um, and it was only a, a quick second the place it was. Once more, this, you understand, the world is troublesome. The world is messy. The world is sophisticated, and individuals are doing courageous, variety, great issues day-after-day. And there are artists making unbelievable works that can transfer us. And there’s a pure world on the market that’s. You already know, nonetheless filled with such thriller.
And so it’s not, you understand, as someone would speak about poisonous positivity saying, you understand, simply look on the intense facet, it’s extra of simply acknowledging that you may have a troublesome day and, you understand, taking a step exterior, taking a deep breath and listening to that chicken track or getting that textual content from a good friend who brings you a second of, of, of heat and kindness. Um, these moments can coexist.
Ki Sung: So talking of chicken track or one thing that has that resonant rhythm, um, you interviewed Dacher Keltner of UC, Berkeley, and he had some recommendation on discovering awe that you just wrote a couple of. In your guide, uh, are you able to learn to me what his recommendation was?
Deborah Farmer Kris : Sure, I truly construction it like a poem, uh, within the guide. And whereas I used to be interviewing him, he was truly out on a stroll, which I discover fairly beautiful. And so I mentioned to him, you understand, what’s your greatest recommendation for locating awe? And that is what he mentioned. How do you discover awe? You permit unstructured time. How do you discover awe?
You wander, you drift by way of. You’re taking a stroll with no purpose. How do you discover awe? You sluggish issues down. You permit for thriller and open questions quite than check pushed solutions, you permit individuals to interact within the humanities of dance and visible artwork and music.
Ki Sung: That actually is gorgeous. so let’s break it down a little bit bit. Uh, you might have spent 20 years as a Ok to 12 instructor. What does awe seem like for the totally different age teams? for elementary years, the center college years, or possibly even the highschool years?
Deborah Farmer Kris : That’s an important query, and I believe to reply this, I, I first want to simply very briefly speak concerning the sources as a result of a few of these sources will look totally different at totally different ages. So when you concentrate on. Normal classes the place individuals discover awe. You may have nature and music, the humanities, large questions, large concepts.
Uh, that feeling of belonging and this, uh, this life cycle. And naturally kinda human goodness. So individuals being variety and courageous, and I believe at totally different ages, totally different of these take priorities. So, you understand, for a 4-year-old, one of many issues they’re actually pushed by are why questions. You already know, why is that this taking place?
In reality, there’s some analysis. That reveals, relying on the supply, that 4 12 months olds can ask, you understand, between type of 70 and 100 questions a day. Uh, and if you happen to’re elevating a child that age which will truly really feel like, you understand, a low estimate, however they’re actually attempting to know their world and they also’re consistently asking questions, participating with their world.
And so. That’s actually thrilling and, and in reality, one of many challenges I believe for educators and fogeys are how do you get excessive schoolers to nonetheless wish to have that sense of surprise and engagement with their world? You already know, when your youngsters are hitting the, the center of highschool years, the. The surprise of belonging.
Um, there’s a, an expression from Émile Durkheim known as Collective Effervescence. Um, that’s actually key as a result of they wish to be a part of a bunch. And collective effervescence mainly implies that you’re a part of a bunch that’s doing, uh, engaged harmoniously towards a typical good trigger. And so that you would possibly consider a sports activities workforce or a choral group, or perhaps a Mannequin UN or d and d or robotics membership the place individuals are working collectively towards this widespread purpose, and that feels actually good. Um, so when youngsters, particularly youngsters, don’t discover that they’re lacking out on a. A supply of surprise that they’re truly biologically primed for, as a result of that is an age the place they’re pulling away from dad and mom and seeking to be a part of a peer group.
And in order that turns into a extremely vital factor to assist youngsters navigate. How do you discover the in-person, peer group?
Deborah Farmer Kris : Um, I believe. You already know, for any age group being out in nature, um, participating with artwork, discovering music that speaks to them and which will change dramatically their musical tastes. Um. These are all type of ready-made sources of awe that we may be tapping into as, as academics.
One of many issues I actually love about the entire developmental vary of childhood is that curiosity change and that what makes them tick, what lights them up, change, and, um I’ve taught nearly each grade Ok by way of 12, and actually certainly one of my favorites is center college, partly as a result of it’s such a time of intense change.
And I believe for folks and educators, it could actually really feel tough when it appears to be like like they’re, um, letting go of issues that used to make them proud of sources of awe and, and, and surprise for them.
And so it’d seem like they’re simply getting jaded or cynical when the truth is they’re present process a really pure transition into. Maybe what’s going to be the brand new face. And so being affected person with them and type of going with it and getting curious, um, have working towards some radical curiosity about, okay, so your child doesn’t actually like soccer anymore in spite of everything these years on a, you understand, soccer squad, nevertheless it appears to be like like they could be interested by becoming a member of, um, a drama troupe. And so I’m gonna take a deep breath and go along with that.
Or there could be a sticky time in between the place they don’t know who their good friend group is and what their pursuits are. However that’s such an important identification formation time, and I really feel like awe and surprise are an important instrument for folks throughout that identification formation as a result of if you can begin simply taking note of, okay, so what’s sparking their pursuits? What does mild them up? What? The place can I see that their eyes did develop huge? And possibly we discover that a little bit bit. Possibly it sticks, possibly it doesn’t, and that’s okay. However these are all pathways in to psychological wellness, emotional wellness, and even educational development.
Ki Sung: That seems like nice recommendation and also you cited, uh, Benjamin Bloom’s analysis, I imagine, when describing that spark.
Deborah Farmer Kris : Yeah
Ki Sung: Um, and fogeys, you understand, encouraging youngsters alongside that path. Uh. I do have a query for you, for educators. What amazes me every time I observe academics within the classroom is how they are often nonetheless enthusiastic educating the identical subject, bringing the sense of awe to 30 totally different youngsters six instances a day for the various, a few years they’ve been educating. How do awe and surprise live on in a classroom when one would possibly get a little bit uninterested in doing the identical factor over and over?
Deborah Farmer Kris : I like that query. I used to be an English instructor for years in addition to an elementary college instructor. And I, I believe between reflecting by myself educating expertise. And now this analysis, I had a little bit of an aha second
uh, what saved it contemporary was watching my college students first encounter with it. their moments of awe, I bear in mind a scholar coming in and we had simply completed Taylor two cities, and he or she got here in and he or she was crying and he or she was indignant and he or she threw the guide down. She had completed the guide within the hallway and he or she mentioned. It’s not supposed to finish this manner. And I believed, you understand, I’ve learn this guide a dozen instances, however for the primary time right here, she’s experiencing this emotional catharsis of seeing this sort of closing sacrifice of the, the protagonist of this guide. And, um, you understand, that’s a extremely thrilling factor as a instructor.
You already know, I, I write about my freshman 12 months in faculty ’trigger it’s nonetheless so transformational to me. I had this professor who took us out of the classroom. He was an training professor, however he took us to the Museum of Nice Arts. He took us to the Isabella Stewart Backyard Museum in Boston. And, um. At one level, uh, you understand, I, it was a number of weeks later I used to be studying, uh, I, I went to the Isabella Stewart Gardner to, to do some homework.
It was chilly in Boston. It was a gorgeous courtyard. Um, and he ended up capturing an image of, of me studying one thing and giving that to me as a present. This sort of emblem of, you understand, me studying a guide in an artwork museum. And I truly saved that image in my classroom for years as type of this reminder of a instructor who noticed me, a instructor, launched me to magnificence, uh, and that that was the sort, though I didn’t have the phrase awe for it on the time, it was completely what drew me again to that place. Um, and so I knew nearly intuitively that that was the emotion that I needed to attach with, with the scholars. And so, you understand, if I’m tired of what I’m educating, I have to freshen it up a little bit bit. Um, however it might be that I simply. I additionally have to tune into the children in entrance of me in a manner that what sparks me is their spark, um, greater than the content material itself.
Ki Sung: I believe what I’m listening to you say is awe is that this connective feeling that motivates you, motivates the scholars, um, and possibly motivates lots of people to form their worlds into one thing totally different than what that they had earlier than or had been anticipating for themselves.
Deborah Farmer Kris : I believe that’s honest as a result of one of many traits of awe is what scientists name the small self, uh, which is when you understand. I take into consideration this with youngsters the place they, they assume all people’s observing them. Uh, I believe lots of adults really feel that too, proper? I, I made a mistake. Everyone’s enthusiastic about that.
And something that helps you zoom out and get a broader perspective, uh, is one thing that may assist quiet that type of inside chatter that we’ve got, um, and simply type of realign. Our understanding of the world and our place in it. And certainly one of my favourite items of analysis, uh, and I, I share this with youngsters so much and so they find it irresistible.
Um, it, it was carried out at uc, Berkeley, and there’s a science constructing, which from the again is mostly a nondescript brick constructing. Nothing notably awe inspiring about that structure. However if you happen to flip your physique round, there’s this grove of, um, previous development bushes. And so the researchers had their topics one after the other come out and both face the nondescript brick constructing or face the attractive grove of bushes.
After which after a span of time, someone else within the research, unbeknownst to the check topic, wanders by and drops issues. And so they have been measuring like, nicely, who’s gonna assist the stranger choose up their issues? And it seems. At a statistically important stage, those that have been staring on the bushes, uh, have been extra probably to assist a stranger than these observing a brick constructing.
And what I like concerning the research is that it’s simply, it’s such a metaphor for all times within the sense that we may be standing in the very same place. Proper, the identical circumstances, however the place we direct our gaze, um, what we select to see can also improve our sense of connectedness, um, to individuals round us. And one of many different issues we all know is that, um performing acts of kindness, proper? That could be a enhance to wellbeing as nicely. Uh, that when someone is feeling lonely or down or depressed, that acts of service turned out to be a extremely, actually efficient and highly effective intervention. And so, you understand, I. Researchers speculate. Why have we advanced to really feel this?
As a result of all emotions have capabilities, proper? Disgust is there as a result of we don’t wish to eat the rotten hen and concern motivates us to keep away from hazard. Uh, so the speculation is that awe is designed to assist us um be extra linked to our communities, um, to type of bind individuals towards a typical objective, proper? If you understand, I, I take into consideration the eclipse and the way I used to be close to the trail of totality and the way the complete neighborhood got here out.
And right here we’re, the entire neighborhood staring up on the sky collectively. Like these are moments. Um. You consider all of the individuals who, who go to a World Collection sport, um, to cheer collectively which can be, are binding us as a neighborhood. And people are issues that assist us with wellbeing and even survival. And in order that’s, that’s a speculation and it’s, it’s one I, I believe we must always proceed to discover.
Ki Sung: Deborah, thanks a lot for bringing awe to our consideration. I hope that simply by bringing this subject into the world or sharing it extra with a wider viewers, that extra individuals create this optimistic affect to create a greater world. It seems like we’re already on our manner.
Deborah Farmer Kris : Thanks a lot.
Ki Sung: Debra Farmer Kris is a baby growth skilled and writer of “Elevating Awe Seekers, how The Science of Marvel Helps our Youngsters Thrive.” She’s additionally a longtime MindShift contributor who’s written so much about emotion so I encourage you to lookup these tales. And he or she additionally works for PBS Youngsters as a present advisor.
You may as well try her kids’s guide sequence “All of the Time” and “I See You”.
Ki Sung
The MindShift workforce contains me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations supervisor and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We obtain further help from Maha Sanad.
MindShift is supported partially by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Basis and members of KQED.
Some members of the KQED podcast workforce are represented by The Display screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Tv and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Native.
